Grant FuellenbachOct 16, 2026
Why Your Crew Quietly Refuses the AI You Bought | Estie Briggs
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Why Your Crew Quietly Refuses the AI You Bought | Estie Briggs
Grant Fuellenbach
You bought the software. Your crew nodded through training. Then they went right back to the old way.
Estie Briggs (Briggs Performance Consulting) spent 7 years rolling out software for a living. She says the tool rarely breaks first. The person does.
What you will learn:
- Why every change asks people to give something up, and how to find out what
- The office that made empty folders so they knew they had work to do
- Why you only need about 13% of your team to go first
- The $10K PowerPoint deck that says one thing: listen to your people
- The neutral zone, where productivity dips and owners panic
- The first sign a crew owns a tool instead of just putting up with it
- How to keep the change from sliding back
What breaks first
Why change is the skill that matters now
Estie's road from mortgage to change management
What people give up in every change
The designer whose identity lives in SketchUp
Early adopters and the 13% rule
Listen for pain points first
A rollout that stalled after go-live
When the old way and the new way overlap
What owners get wrong in the neutral zone
The first sign a crew owns a tool
How to keep the change from sliding back
Estie's pick and her change bootcamp
Your move this week: Pick one tool your team avoids. Sit with one crew member for 15 minutes and watch them use it. Do not talk. Write down where they get stuck.
Get Estie's Bridges Change Readiness Report Card: https://briggsperformanceconsulting.com
Follow Estie on Instagram: @agilegardener
Her self-paced change management bootcamp launches by November 2026.
Watch Estie's first Beyond the Bid episode on EQ in the trades.
Why Your Crew Quietly Refuses the AI You Bought | Estie Briggs
Grant Fuellenbach
You bought the software. Your crew nodded through training. Then they went right back to the old way.
Estie Briggs (Briggs Performance Consulting) spent 7 years rolling out software for a living. She says the tool rarely breaks first. The person does.
What you will learn:
- Why every change asks people to give something up, and how to find out what
- The office that made empty folders so they knew they had work to do
- Why you only need about 13% of your team to go first
- The $10K PowerPoint deck that says one thing: listen to your people
- The neutral zone, where productivity dips and owners panic
- The first sign a crew owns a tool instead of just putting up with it
- How to keep the change from sliding back
What breaks first
Why change is the skill that matters now
Estie's road from mortgage to change management
What people give up in every change
The designer whose identity lives in SketchUp
Early adopters and the 13% rule
Listen for pain points first
A rollout that stalled after go-live
When the old way and the new way overlap
What owners get wrong in the neutral zone
The first sign a crew owns a tool
How to keep the change from sliding back
Estie's pick and her change bootcamp
Your move this week: Pick one tool your team avoids. Sit with one crew member for 15 minutes and watch them use it. Do not talk. Write down where they get stuck.
Get Estie's Bridges Change Readiness Report Card: https://briggsperformanceconsulting.com
Follow Estie on Instagram: @agilegardener
Her self-paced change management bootcamp launches by November 2026.
Watch Estie's first Beyond the Bid episode on EQ in the trades.
Chapters
00:00
What breaks first
00:14
Why change is the skill that matters now
01:57
Estie's road from mortgage to change management
08:12
What people give up in every change
11:08
The designer whose identity lives in SketchUp
17:18
Early adopters and the 13% rule
20:52
Listen for pain points first
24:41
A rollout that stalled after go-live
27:39
When the old way and the new way overlap
31:31
What owners get wrong in the neutral zone
35:51
The first sign a crew owns a tool
38:27
How to keep the change from sliding back
40:05
Estie's pick and her change bootcamp
Transcript
00:00
I think what breaks first is the person.
00:02
If you're not listening to them and helping them through that neutral zone, that's when all the emotions come up for people too, because they feel incompetent, they get frustrated.
00:13
Well, thanks so much for joining me, Estie.
00:15
I'm glad that this worked out today.
00:17
I'm stoked for this.
00:18
Thanks.
00:19
Me too.
00:19
It's good to see you.
00:20
And, it's good to— I love nerding out about like change and tech adoption and have a background in software implementation and used to see firsthand how hard it was for people to adopt change.
00:35
And so now it's really an interesting time that we're in.
00:38
Yeah.
00:38
big time.
00:39
There's so much freaking change.
00:41
It's kind of crazy.
00:42
It is.
00:43
It's like change management is probably the most valuable skill you can have right now.
00:48
I think so too.
00:49
I'm so happy to hear you say that because it's so hard.
00:53
Everything is, is just changing.
00:56
So 4 months ago, I thought that the world was in a crazy spot, you know, and now it's like, AI assistants are a thing, like Muse and Grokba and all this other stuff.
01:05
so I guess for those, you've been on the show before, which is amazing.
01:11
but I know, like, it— like we were just talking about how fast things are progressing.
01:16
and so I think you were on— was that 6 months ago?
01:20
Was it more than that?
01:21
I think it's been about 6 months.
01:23
We were talking about, EQ and yeah, how important it is in the trades, which is still true.
01:29
Totally.
01:30
Yeah, 100%.
01:31
I'll make sure that in the show notes and whatnot that we link it, because that, that's still such a, an undervalued— or not even undervalued, just underutilized skill.
01:41
Yeah, and all of that.
01:43
but the topic today is super interesting, which is like not so much how to stay at pace with so much change, but how to lead like a team through it, you know, how to get a team to actually adopt it.
01:56
Yeah.
01:57
so you were talking about like your background initially with like software implementation and, and change management.
02:02
Do you mind just kind of like highlighting that for a second?
02:06
Yeah, gladly.
02:07
Sure.
02:07
I, my 20-plus-year background was in training, and that was where I found my niche and found my calling.
02:16
And I love doing training and leadership development.
02:19
And then, but that was in the mortgage industry, which was volatile, is volatile.
02:25
And I went out on my own basically in 2017.
02:29
And one of my first clients, I went out on my own to do training, but also offer change management consulting.
02:35
So that was what I was getting my degree in at the time.
02:38
And one of my first clients was a software implementation company, and I ended up revamping their whole implementation process to make it more agile.
02:51
As in, and the term agile gets used a lot of different ways, but it's really about, you know, if you had to like boil it down to a couple sentences, it's like How do we make it so that the people that are impacted by the change get to inform how it rolls out?
03:07
And how do we make it so that you can have quick wins fast?
03:11
And so one of those, in agile, you do iterations or sprints or whatever you want to call them, but little blocks.
03:18
And that was really fascinating to me that, you know, it was like something I'd always known, but not ever been able to put a word to.
03:25
And I got my Agile certification during COVID which helped also.
03:30
And so, yeah, so I spent about 7 years helping clients for that software company implement the software in a way that was more human-centered and less like just flipping a switch and expecting people to start using the new software, which was— I'd been on the receiving end of that technique.
03:49
I think so many people are like, for some reason that's just commonplace, you know, like, leadership decided to get this thing and Yeah, it's go live.
03:57
Yeah.
03:58
Okay.
03:59
Yeah.
03:59
The data's migrated.
04:01
Do it.
04:02
Yeah.
04:02
You're the, I think you're the only person I know who actually holds a degree in change management though.
04:08
Well, it's, it's in, so it's in organization development, but we heavily, it's heavily about change.
04:15
OD is sort of this big umbrella and change and leading change and organizational change and like the psychology of change is all, is all in that umbrella.
04:24
cool.
04:25
What, like, what got you into that?
04:28
What was the motivation for, like, choosing that as your— as the degree?
04:32
It was a— it was a long-time goal.
04:35
So ever since I got into training and understanding how people learn and sort of the science behind what makes us motivated to learn new things, I realized quickly that that was the— organization development was the the degree that housed those, those competencies or those skills.
04:55
And I knew that that was what I wanted.
04:58
And, but I never finished my— I didn't go straight to college out of high school.
05:03
So I went back and did my degree when I was in my 40s.
05:06
And cool.
05:07
So I'd had time to think about it and, and set those goals.
05:10
And then when I found the program at USF, go Dons, we— I was like, yeah, this is the one for me.
05:16
And so And I love it.
05:17
That's amazing.
05:18
Great.
05:18
It's a great program.
05:19
It's sort of like we used to joke that it was like the people side of an MBA.
05:24
It's like everybody, the MBA is like, used to be at least like the holy grail of the degrees.
05:30
And they're great, not to knock the MBAs, but the OD degree is really about how do you get your teams working?
05:39
Organizations are made of people.
05:41
At the end of the day, or at least when I was in school they were.
05:44
Now they're— now it's 50/50.
05:48
Yeah, it's a mix.
05:50
Yeah.
05:51
So, but those people skills is what is going to help us adopt all these, these new changes.
05:58
Absolutely.
05:58
Yeah, soft skills are, are very much the, the most valuable, but they're also the harder skills to acquire.
06:05
Yeah, yeah.
06:07
I think you might have actually said that on the last podcast.
06:09
That sounds like something I would say.
06:12
It's true.
06:13
It's true.
06:14
And we don't get it modeled for us usually.
06:18
You know, it's nobody's— I mean, sometimes we do, but— yeah.
06:22
Yeah.
06:22
Often it, you know, depends on our work culture and our households that we grew up in and, you know, what we saw other people do.
06:29
Yeah.
06:30
So in a workplace though, Like, just in this, this world of like, you know, it's ever evolving.
06:39
This, this thing is like, you know, I, I built out an org chart the other day, which the idea— and I took the idea from somebody else— but the idea is like, if we now live in a world that's kind of like AI augmented, so where hopefully we've surpassed this idea of AI just replacing people.
07:00
Hopefully we've elim— we can eliminate that from the register.
07:04
I think it's still in a lot of people's minds, but yeah, I know.
07:07
I— yeah, especially with like corporate, big corporations.
07:10
I just— yeah, my philosophy is like, I never want that to be like— when people are working with us or whatever, I never want that to even be a possibility.
07:19
Instead, like my philosophy on AI and tools in general should be that it gives you— it doesn't just free up time, it allows you to take on more responsibility.
07:30
Exactly.
07:31
Yeah.
07:31
And so I guess in this, this world where, you know, we have— people can own their own, for lack of a better term, like AI employees or AI agents.
07:45
How do you— how do you get started, like, getting teams?
07:47
Because that's a big— you're not just, you know, learning a new tool.
07:51
You're kind of like managing tools now.
07:56
How do you get started with that alongside people?
07:59
So it's really interesting.
08:01
And I'm trying to think of how this might apply.
08:05
So maybe you can help me because you know more about the construction end of things and how they're implementing AI tools.
08:11
But in any change, there's always something that people have to give up in order to start the new way of, working.
08:22
Yeah.
08:22
And so, for example, when I was in mortgage, we had implemented a paperless software and it was gonna expedite our turn times and you know, just solve all the world's problems, right?
08:37
Which, I mean, to be facetious, but it was this really, radical change in the way that we'd been working.
08:43
And this was in an industry where people were working the same way for decades with paper.
08:49
And so the— it was easy for the executives to see the benefits, but the people working with the paper had never worked with digital images really.
09:00
I mean, other than whatever technical skills they'd built on their own, they had.
09:07
But in general, they would come to work and their computer was just used for email and maybe managing, you know, tasks.
09:14
But even— not even that.
09:16
I mean, everything was paper.
09:17
If there was a file on your desk, you had to do something with the file.
09:20
Sure.
09:20
And so The big change was that you're no longer having files on your desk.
09:25
You're having files assigned to you as a digital task.
09:29
And, yeah, and they couldn't get their heads around the fact that they didn't have files.
09:33
And so they started, you know, we do our workarounds.
09:36
You've always got people that figure out the workaround.
09:38
And their workaround was that they made empty files because they had to have a file on their desk to understand that they had something to do.
09:45
Wow.
09:46
And, and so we were like, like they need that tangible thing, at least in the interim.
09:51
And so all of that to say, what they were giving up, even though they were getting all these gains of like efficiency and not having to stand at the copier for hours, like scanning paper, like thousands of pages, and, they were not having to do that work anymore, but they'd been really good at that work.
10:11
They were competent at it.
10:12
It was part of their identity.
10:13
They were good good shippers and funders and whatever their titles were.
10:17
And so you have to take into account that even though there's a gain in efficiency for the organization, it might feel like a loss to the people.
10:25
And so I think where you have to start is just asking, what is it?
10:28
What are we going to be asking people to give up?
10:30
Fascinating.
10:31
yeah.
10:31
I know, right?
10:32
It's, I know it's like, yeah, people are gonna have to give up their sense of competence.
10:39
In their job.
10:39
So I'm actually curious, like, since you implement so much in the construction world where people are having to like give up anything in order to implement some of these new tools, whether it's their own competency or their identity or their sense of, yeah, agency, you know, I don't know that much about— I know a lot about how people work with each other in construction, but I don't know that much about the I literally had a conversation about this yesterday.
11:08
I was just introducing somebody to like, you know, this way of thinking of like what's possible with AI.
11:15
And, they're a, they were designing like this really extensive, outdoor landscaping project.
11:22
Okay.
11:23
And they were walking me through their plans in SketchUp just like a, you know, planning tool.
11:31
And I was like, this is really cool.
11:34
Like, this— you guys did a really good job.
11:36
It's super in-depth.
11:37
You know, there were like, notes and people were commenting on it and drawing.
11:41
Yeah, it was like really in-depth renders.
11:45
And I asked him like, how long did this take?
11:48
to— and how did you do this?
11:50
You know, he walked me through the, the tech stack and he's like, yeah, I've been doing this since like high school.
11:58
Wow.
11:58
So, or, you know, more or less.
11:59
That wasn't that long ago.
12:01
But yeah, yeah, I guess he was, he probably was like 28 or something.
12:05
I'm not sure.
12:05
Okay, speculating.
12:07
and, and I was like, this is like really impressive.
12:11
And I was almost like scared to show him like how AI it wouldn't replicate that entirely, but it could like streamline or augment so much of that workflow because so much of his identity, i.e., since high school, is, you know, in that, that process and in that deliverable.
12:29
Yeah.
12:30
and, and I think that's— it's to answer the question, it's like, you know, AI, you should have the, you should have the autonomy to determine like how much of that process is exactly automated.
12:43
and how much of it is like your taste, your creativity, your expertise still is included in there.
12:49
Yeah.
12:50
Or can you bake it in?
12:51
Can you build a skill that takes your, your brand or your expertise or your creativity and bake that into the AI?
13:00
But then I think that's where people get scared because they don't want to be replaced by it.
13:04
Yeah, 100%.
13:06
Which is like, you know, you've invested so much of your time, your energy you know, your effort into learning this thing, to create this, this plan, and then AI comes along and it's like, we'll take that off your plate.
13:20
And you're like, no, I don't.
13:22
This is not— yeah, exactly.
13:23
That's what— yeah.
13:24
And it's like some of us are wired to be like, well, cool, then what else does that open up my time for?
13:32
Or what else can I do with my time?
13:34
Or, you know, even if it was something that you enjoyed doing, if it can be automated, it's Like, there's probably other things that you enjoy doing or probably other things that you could get really good at.
13:44
But I definitely think this is a time where it helps to have a growth mindset of, you know, because nothing stays the same forever.
13:51
It's just that change is happening so rapid right now.
13:54
It's, it's hard for us to, you know, get our feet under us and then like the next change comes and all of a sudden, you know, something that we were doing 2 weeks ago now can be done with a click or a voice prompt or, you know, just whatever.
14:11
It's just, it's insane.
14:13
It's hard to keep up with.
14:14
I think of like truck drivers, you know.
14:16
I, I don't know if this stat is still correct, but for a long time truck drivers were the most— it was the most common job in the US.
14:25
wow, there were so many truck drivers.
14:28
And nowadays, like, it's not here yet for many reasons, but there are autonomously driving cars, right?
14:36
And so truck drivers, they, you know, unless you're literally hiding under a rock or in your truck, you, you probably have this like lingering fear of, Elon's coming for my job.
14:50
Totally.
14:51
Yeah.
14:51
Yeah.
14:52
It's like, what am I gonna do with my time?
14:55
What if I get replaced?
14:56
What?
14:56
Nobody wants to be irrelevant.
14:59
You know, I mean, it's in our human nature to have a purpose.
15:02
And so I think, I think it's all the more reason to kind of dig into that and figure out like, well, what do you want to spend your time doing?
15:09
And can you find a way?
15:11
And it maybe it sounds a little too sunshiny or overly optimistic, but I'd like to think that there's things that we can do in the, in society as humans that still contribute to a better society.
15:25
And maybe take us out of the worker bee mentality of just like doing the same.
15:31
Some people don't like doing the same shit every day.
15:34
Some people like it.
15:35
They like things to be predictable.
15:37
Yeah.
15:37
And some people don't.
15:38
And I think for the people that like predictability and certainty, it's harder for them to adjust.
15:44
And absolutely.
15:45
yeah.
15:46
And it's, it's, I think For some reason, it seems to be like a generation.
15:51
I don't, I don't know much about, you know, Gen Z now, but, millennials, I think, were kind of that, the abrupt of that.
15:58
Like the baby boomer generation, you know, and the greatest generation, this idea of having a career with a company, yeah, you know, that dissolved immediately.
16:09
Yeah.
16:09
And so now it's like, okay, you have to adapt, you have to You know, the, the internet's in here, the— we're doing remote working.
16:18
There's so, so much change going on that gen— like, my generation had to adapt to it pretty much.
16:26
And now, you know, Gen Z is kind of like even more— you— it's taking that to another level with you have to adapt to AI, in the workplace.
16:37
Yep.
16:37
how do you— so like, for those who you know, like the predictability.
16:42
They, they, they like the, the, you know, here's my role, here's what's expected of me, here's my career projection.
16:52
In 2 years, I know I can get a promotion, you know, whatever that is.
16:57
how do you— you mentioned the term growth mindset earlier.
17:01
Like, when you're, when you're talking to somebody and they, they— you, you and they both recognize that they're that type of personality, how do you get started with like recommending, you know, trying to get them to adopt— yeah, just that new way of thinking?
17:15
So there's a couple things.
17:18
The first one is, in every group— and Simon Sinek does a great video on this— but there's like this concept that we've got I forget who's in the middle, but it's like there's these early adopters in every group, and it's usually a small percentage of the population.
17:35
And then there's the laggards, which are— it sounds kind of negative, but it's like they're the last to go along with a change.
17:41
And then in the middle is sort of like everybody else who's just like, well, show me that it's gonna work and then I'll try it.
17:46
One of the things you can do, and this is where people skills comes in again, is get your— identify your early adopters.
17:54
And they might not all be the millennials.
17:57
Like, I know plenty of people, myself included, that are born in the '70s or before that like to play with new tech and see what it can do for them.
18:08
So that's one thing.
18:09
So there's a certain statistic in change that if you can get, it's something like 13% of the population to see the benefit and adopt it, they will help influence the others.
18:26
And so instead of trying to just get everybody on board all at once, because the majority is not going to want to get on board all at once, you find your early adopters, you make them your change champions, or, you know, there's all these different things you can call them.
18:38
but you find the ones that are going to see the benefit in it.
18:41
And maybe also help see the downsides or the risks.
18:46
And you listen to that feedback, and this is where it benefits you to do things in iterations.
18:52
Like, for example, when I was in the mortgage company, instead of just rolling the software out to every team, we just rolled it out to the team that was most reliant on paper just to see like, okay, how much time can they save?
19:07
You know, and you get a few of them to try it, and then the other ones are like, so I can do with like way more files in a day.
19:13
And it's like, yeah.
19:14
And then of course there's the fear side of like, well, if I can do 30 files in a day instead of 10, then what's going to happen to my job?
19:21
And it's like, that's a valid question.
19:22
And that's where managers need to say, well, how can we transfer your— what, what skills do you have that we can use somewhere else?
19:30
Or, or that You might even enjoy your job more if you don't have to spend 8 hours in front of the copy machine, you know.
19:38
Like, how do you, how do you identify, I was just on a call and we were talking about kind of this term, like early adopters or power users.
19:46
Yeah.
19:47
without doing a rollout and like understanding, okay, you know, Estie is out, she's using the tool more than, say, the top 25% or whatever it was, or she's in that 13% without rolling it out.
20:01
How do you identify somebody who's more inclined to fall into that category?
20:05
yeah, that's a good question.
20:07
You have to know your people, I think.
20:09
So, and if you don't, so if it's a huge company, I would say you could do surveys.
20:13
There's different questions you can ask in employee surveys.
20:17
But you can see, you know, there's also this great article on purple people that I've quoted before, which is like the people that understand the tech and the business side of something of any industry are usually also your early adopters.
20:32
And it's almost like they work out of both sides of their brain.
20:35
Like they're just more fluid in how they can understand technology and also their job.
20:44
So there's that.
20:45
And then the other thing you can do is, well, this goes back to your first question, which is like, how do you think about getting people on board?
20:53
Is to listen for their pain points.
20:55
Like, what about their job sucks?
20:58
Because like the executives have their own reason for wanting to roll out the change, but the people that are gonna have to do the new thing, they probably have some pain points that might be solved with this that they're not aware of.
21:10
And so if you can find what's in it for them, that's another, that's another way.
21:15
Do you usually recommend doing that through like interviews or— Yeah, yeah, you got to interview your stakeholders.
21:22
There's a whole process that I teach in my class.
21:25
Can I plug my class now?
21:26
Yeah, no, absolutely.
21:28
Yeah, no, this is like exactly what we were just talking about.
21:31
Like, it's called a stakeholder analysis And it doesn't have to be hard.
21:35
It's just like you list your people.
21:38
And yes, if you have thousands of people, you're going to, you know, it's a bigger scale.
21:44
But for each person that's affected by the change, you talk to them.
21:47
You say, like, tell me about your job today.
21:49
You know, you interview them and ask them open-ended questions and you consolidate that information.
21:56
And this is what change management experts do.
21:58
Do.
21:58
And they go in and they charge like tens of thousands of dollars to do this, actually.
22:03
And you get a PowerPoint deck at the end and they tell you all the things you need to do.
22:08
And it's a $10,000 PowerPoint deck.
22:10
And it's like, basically what you need to do is listen to the people that are impacted by the change and then let them help influence the, you know, if they can have any say in it, they have way more buy-in, you know, even if it's a Something as small as like when we were rolling out the paperless software, one of the things that lit people up was the fact that it had these customizable stickies that you could put on documents.
22:35
So in the past, they would put a sticky note on something and write a note so that the next person could see it.
22:42
And when they found out that they could color code the stickies, they were so happy.
22:46
And it's like, yeah, who knew that that would light them up?
22:48
But whatever, you know, it's like, it's not why we bought the software, but if it makes you happy.
22:54
Yeah, go forth with your pink stickies, like whatever, you know.
23:00
Seriously though, like, if it gives people some agency— yeah, yeah, make it your own.
23:04
And like understanding that too, like the— I kind of— that scenario even, you know, resonates so well with today.
23:12
It's like, I think a big part of the hesitancy around AI is like, it's— you're gonna lose control.
23:20
Yeah, you lose control over like the— your role, your responsibilities, the deliverables, and how it gets done.
23:28
Yeah, your, your personality, your, your preferences, your taste gets eliminated.
23:34
Yeah.
23:34
So how can you, you know, how can you work with that?
23:37
It's like, if that's the case, then what needs to be true in order for it to be better for you?
23:42
Or yeah.
23:44
you know, and that's why there's, there's so much benefit to getting input from people and getting their feedback, even if sometimes leaders don't want to hear it.
23:56
It's not always convenient, but resistance is not futile.
24:02
They will resist and they will sabotage things if you don't get them on board.
24:07
And, you know, It's like, it's better to get people on board and, and at least let them have their say.
24:14
Yep.
24:14
To as much as you, you know, as much as you can.
24:17
so when I was prepping for this, or when Claude was prepping for this, I should say, it came up with like a few questions on like different scenarios.
24:27
if you're cool with it, I'd love to just like throw those or just like hand them off and see, you know, how you would recommend like approaching it.
24:35
Yeah.
24:36
Let's see.
24:37
It's like a pop quiz.
24:40
Yeah.
24:41
let's see.
24:41
So we got, tell me about a rollout you saw stall after it went live.
24:48
Like what did that week look like after?
24:50
it was a shit show.
24:51
I can tell you.
24:54
Have a seat.
24:55
No.
24:56
Okay, one comes to mind immediately, which was, which is also the paperless shift, because this was like organization-wide.
25:03
one of the busiest branches started using the software, and they were the highest producing branches, and they hit the brakes on it and freaked out and called corporate, and they're like, we're going back to paper, we're not doing this, it's slowing us down, it's impacting sales.
25:18
And as soon as the CEO heard that it was impacting sales, she was like, what the hell's going on?
25:25
What's wrong with the software?
25:26
Why isn't it working?
25:28
And so that's where, you know, I got to go put on my change management hat and interview people and find out.
25:35
The week looked like people being very pissed off and very resistant and very resentful that this change had been forced on them.
25:45
And when I went to the branch to find out what was happening and I started asking like, well, show me exactly what's not working.
25:51
Like where in the process is it slowing you down?
25:56
And then they showed me some things they were doing.
25:58
Like for example, they were printing PDFs and then scanning them and then uploading them.
26:04
And it was like, no, no, you can send it to the software from your email.
26:10
Know, and we covered this in training, but that doesn't matter.
26:13
People go through training and it's like you tell them a thousand things.
26:16
And, and so when they found out they didn't have to print something and scan it and then re-upload it, they were like, I'm like, yeah.
26:24
And then the next thing was, their Wi-Fi sucked.
26:28
They were on a crap Wi-Fi system and it's dependent— this software is dependent on them having decent Wi-Fi.
26:35
Absolutely.
26:36
I told them to upgrade their Wi-Fi and it's like, okay, well that taught us something.
26:39
That was a lesson learned, right?
26:41
So then you take that forward and you make sure the next branch has good Wi-Fi before you go live.
26:45
Yep.
26:46
And so it was just this combination of things that were not addressed, but they weren't— it wasn't that the software sucked, it was that it was— it's always helpful to find out specifics instead of just Join in the panic party.
27:02
100%.
27:03
Yeah, I think that there's so much value to that too, just like taking, you know, documenting what you're doing.
27:09
Yeah, just sit with them and watch and shut up.
27:13
And yeah, 100%.
27:14
yeah, yeah.
27:15
Otherwise, you're exactly right, it like can quickly turn into this like firehouse or shit show of, you know, just chaos.
27:23
Yeah, it was Armageddon and it was like, no, they just need 5G and a job aid.
27:32
Maybe, you know, with some screenshots, like, we can do this.
27:36
Let me— let's see.
27:37
I like this one too.
27:39
when the old way and the new way are both running simultaneously, what breaks first?
27:45
that's a good question.
27:46
So in that model that you were, that Claude found that you used for the screenshot of this episode, it talks about how— so like we talked about the ending, and then there's the the, neutral zone, or the Bridges model of change.
28:03
And then in the neutral zone, there's— the new way isn't happening yet, and the old way isn't— hasn't been let go of yet.
28:10
And so things feel very uncertain.
28:14
And so I guess it's not so much that something breaks first, it's like, it's that that's where the dip in productivity happens and people freak out because you're not seeing the results that the salespeople promised you for the software.
28:28
It's like, this is supposed to make us faster.
28:30
It's like, well, it will, but people need a chance to learn it.
28:33
And so I think what breaks first is the person.
28:37
If you're not listening to them and helping them through that neutral zone, that's when all the emotions come up for people too, because they feel incompetent, they get frustrated.
28:46
and it's crazy how few software companies do that, you know, like their sales are on point.
28:53
They— it's not as sexy.
28:54
Nobody likes middle zone.
28:56
It's not— yeah, yeah, cool.
28:58
But it's like when you're learning to drive a car, you know, it's like you didn't just take the test and then drive skillfully.
29:07
Maybe, but not most of us.
29:09
Yeah, so you have to have some insurance and some, some scary moments driving down, you know.
29:17
Yeah, exactly.
29:18
And then you learn from them, and that's why there's airbags.
29:20
And like, there's a whole analogy there.
29:23
We don't want to use the airbags.
29:26
Yeah, but they're good to have.
29:28
Yeah.
29:28
no, that's, that's good.
29:29
I think like that, that neutral zone is— you're, you're spot on.
29:34
It's like people you know, see the— they're sold the end result, this like, you know, the greener grass.
29:42
But then it's like, no, you actually got to jump over the fence to get there.
29:45
Yeah, yeah.
29:46
You might have to run through a tunnel or two.
29:48
And like, it's how do you equip people to get through that and know that that is happening?
29:55
And the software— or the— it's not always software either, but lately, you know, that's thing.
30:02
It's, it's whatever it is that's getting implemented, it's going to solve all these problems, but it's not going to do it immediately.
30:08
And if you can just acknowledge that and then let people know, like, we're not going to yell at you for not being fast.
30:13
Like, totally.
30:14
Yeah, make it safe.
30:15
You have psychological safety is a huge thing.
30:17
Let people test it, play with it.
30:20
UAT.
30:21
I was working at a company where they're like, they had the tech people do the UAT What is UAT?
30:27
user acceptance training.
30:29
Cool.
30:30
So you let people test it in this like sandbox or an environment where they can play with the new software and not screw anything up.
30:40
And in order for it to go live, especially with like banks and mortgage companies, they've got all this compliance that it has to pass.
30:48
And so you find out if it passes in UAT.
30:51
But that's also where you can get hands-on testing.
30:54
That's where they can test drive.
30:56
And if you don't let the people that are going to be doing it do the test drive, then they're not going to— you're not going to get real valuable feedback.
31:03
You're just getting the tech people to go, yeah, it works.
31:05
You know, it does these 10 things, but it's like, well, you got to run it by Dave in accounting.
31:10
He's my, he's my fictional character.
31:13
Does Dave in accounting, you know, has he been able to like do his job from beginning to end?
31:18
And in the test environment.
31:20
Absolutely.
31:21
Yeah.
31:22
Gotta listen to Dave.
31:24
Yeah.
31:25
Yeah.
31:25
He could be annoying.
31:26
You can't ignore him.
31:27
Yeah.
31:27
Don't ignore Dave.
31:29
Yeah.
31:29
this one's good too.
31:30
What do most business owners get wrong when you enter that neutral zone?
31:36
That it's the people.
31:38
Dragging their feet on purpose and that, and that they're just being hardheaded or willfully dragging their feet or that it's a training issue.
31:53
And I guess I say that as a former training person who is always blamed if people didn't adopt the software and it's like, well, maybe they didn't adopt it because their Wi-Fi is not working or whatever, you know, whatever.
32:05
It's not always because they didn't get trained.
32:08
It's because there's more to change than just, you know, sending people through 2 weeks of training.
32:13
They also need time to practice and adopt it.
32:17
And it's crazy how much money could probably be saved by just spending 5 minutes, you know, in a, in a safe environment.
32:26
Yeah.
32:27
And like having somebody say Why do you think this isn't rolling out?
32:31
Yeah.
32:32
though my Wi-Fi is crap.
32:34
Yep.
32:35
Yeah, the ripple effects are just crazy.
32:38
Yeah, it's in— it's ridiculous.
32:40
It's kind of— I'm really working on building something where I can take all these, all these change, you know, there's all these models of change and, you know, there's Prosci and all these certifications you can get that cost a ton of money, and it's basically just frameworks.
32:57
So it's like, you know, you got to make sure people are aware of the change, and, and there's a process, and it's not always linear.
33:05
But what I would love to do is build like a change Claude bot agent, whatever, where you can just like tell it what's changing, tell it how many people are affected, If the more data you have on your users, like, are there communication styles, for example?
33:23
Like, we talk about that in my— absolutely— workshop.
33:27
Some people want the data, and then some people just want to know what the shiny prize is, and then other people just want results, and then other people want to know that they're not going to get left behind.
33:38
So if you can, you know, yeah, it's a lot to manage, but that's your role as a leader, is to you know, lead people, not just force them into— That would be so cool if you could like understand the full scope of that change, you know, like what's the impact, the change impact analysis.
33:57
Yeah, that's what change agent or change consultants get paid all the money for is saying like, this is the scope of the impact.
34:05
And then the companies don't want to hear that because it usually means they're going to have to slow down.
34:10
yeah, and spend a lot more.
34:12
Yeah, but then you spend more by the change when it rolls out.
34:16
Absolutely.
34:17
yeah, sideways or stalls.
34:19
How crazy that would be just from like a, a forecasting perspective too, if it was like, okay, if you roll out this, you know, if you roll out Salesforce 3 months from now, you're gonna actually need a bigger office.
34:32
And so you need to, you know, because you're— the ripple effects are going to cause X, Y, and Z.
34:37
And so then You're, you know, gonna need an office admin and all these other people.
34:43
Yeah.
34:43
And so then it's like, wow, I thought I was just solving a sales problem.
34:48
Yeah, there's always a ripple effect.
34:49
That's a really good point.
34:51
Just in terms of like being able to, I guess, predict the future, right?
34:56
Like we'd go with HubSpot or Salesforce, what are they going to be the ripple effects of one versus the other?
35:02
Yeah, and it's like, I don't know, it's hard to know exactly, but there are things you can, at least front-load by— and one of those things is asking how much of a change is this going to be for people?
35:13
How drastic is it?
35:15
yeah, you know, how different is it from what they're doing today?
35:18
And if it's very different than what they're doing today and it's not solving any problems for them and they're not likely to adopt it, then, you know, that's fine.
35:34
Like, accept that.
35:36
And then how do you deal with that?
35:37
How do you prepare people or transfer them to other roles that they're better suited for?
35:42
100%.
35:43
I really like this question because it's kind of like the, I guess, the light at the— or the greener grass, the light at the end of the tunnel.
35:51
what's the first sign a crew owns a tool instead of just tolerating it?
35:56
I love that.
35:57
That's a great question.
35:58
well, ideally it becomes something that they can't work without.
36:03
They're like, don't take this from me.
36:04
so that's what you want to see.
36:06
they own a tool instead of just tolerating it, I guess.
36:09
Yeah.
36:10
And then the level of use, like how much are they actually using it?
36:14
How much, if you just walk around and listen to the conversations, which might be harder on a job site than like in an office with cubicles, how do you hear people talking about it?
36:24
Are they still bitching about it or are they quiet about it or are they even like, you know, happy about it?
36:31
Are they wearing the swag, wearing shirts?
36:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
36:35
They're wearing the swag.
36:36
It's true.
36:38
Are they wearing their BuilderTrend t-shirt?
36:40
Yeah, exactly.
36:42
Yeah, that's funny.
36:44
Key indicator.
36:46
Yeah, yeah, right.
36:48
Speaking of which, wait, I think software companies and change companies need to send more of that.
36:53
swag.
36:54
So BuilderTrend, yeah, I think it's huge.
36:56
I think it's, you know, yeah, such a— for power users and just for, you know, users in general.
37:02
Like, I think, what was it?
37:06
I was listening to another podcast and it was like how software companies can make their users feel seen and, you know, getting acknowledgement through that, through like swag or donuts or whatever it is, you know?
37:20
Yeah.
37:21
Yeah, that's true.
37:22
That's really true.
37:22
I remember I rolled out an intranet at a company and those of us that worked on the project crew, we all got t-shirts.
37:29
With their company name on it.
37:32
And I guess if we had not liked the intranet that we rolled out, we might not have worn them.
37:37
But it was also like, they see us and they're thanking us for implementing their product and we'd wear our t-shirts and it felt like I was part of the tech crew because I was like, I had the BloomFire t-shirt or whatever.
37:52
Yeah.
37:54
Feel acknowledged.
37:55
Yeah, then people see it and they're like, you must know how to use it.
37:57
And, you know, and then they can ask you questions.
38:00
for sure.
38:02
Not for gifting though.
38:03
You don't want to use swag for gifting.
38:05
So like if you're sending your clients thank-yous, they don't want to go first mode.
38:09
Yeah, right.
38:11
Corporate polo for your Christmas present.
38:15
It doesn't count as a gift, but it does, it does still motivate people.
38:20
It is interesting for sure.
38:22
I like this one because it's, it's very much in line with like the neutral zone.
38:26
What has to keep happening after you, you go past that like early adoption so that the team doesn't slide back into the old ways or, you know, yes, that's such a good question too.
38:38
It's called sustaining.
38:40
How do you sustain the change?
38:42
One of the best things you can do is publicly recognize the wins that people are having.
38:47
So especially if you're dispersed, like, well, Redwood City's, 100% paperless now, like shout out to them in the company newsletter.
38:57
Keep talking about it.
38:58
Employee recognition, if, if companies do, which they should be, rewarding good behavior, you know, consider that adopting that change to be the behavior that you reward.
39:09
Whether it's just public recognition that people are on board now.
39:14
And also keep iterating feedback.
39:17
If you get feedback that they want their sticky notes to be teal instead of pink, then see if you can turn on the teal sticky notes for them.
39:28
If it doesn't cost anything, right, and it makes them feel heard, that helps sustain the change.
39:35
I love that.
39:36
Absolutely.
39:37
Yeah, that's— yeah, try to incorporate the feedback and make it, make it so that they feel like their feedback's getting actually— and you can always recognize the person who had that idea in the first place.
39:49
Like, you know, yeah, thanks so much for Estie for coming up with the idea of like the, the color-coded, sticky notes.
39:54
Yeah, that would be me.
39:56
That would be like— and I would love to get recognized for something like that.
40:00
Other people might not.
40:02
so 2 things I want to like wrap up with.
40:05
I, I, I think I was on Instagram or something the other day and I was watching this, end of a show where the host asked like, what's the one show, book, some something recently that's got you like super, jazzed?
40:21
And so I want to ask that, like, if you have something that's top of mind, something that just you know, it's got you hyped up recently?
40:28
Yeah.
40:29
It's not out yet, but I'm really excited about Tiago Forte's Life in Perspective book.
40:35
I really like the way he and his wife too leads some amazing reflection exercises to just look back and to bring it back to, like, personal change too.
40:45
You know, we've been talking about organizational change, but, like, when you think back over this past year, how much have you personally learned or overcome or accomplished?
40:55
And he has a really great process for leading people through meaningful reflection.
41:01
So I love that.
41:02
Yeah, Tiago is the man.
41:04
Yeah, I love his content.
41:06
I like him too.
41:06
Yeah, he's so funny.
41:08
He's very, he's just so buttoned up and kind of nerdy, but then he like talks about doing mushrooms and you're like, okay.
41:15
Yeah, but he's like, I need to go do that again.
41:18
I'm like, okay.
41:18
Hey, Thiago.
41:19
Yeah, I see you at Burning Man.
41:22
I'm with it.
41:22
I hear you.
41:23
Yeah, exactly.
41:25
and then the second one like, how can people— I don't like that question of like, how can people, you know, reach out or hear more or anything like that.
41:34
But, do you want to just talk about your program and like what you're building?
41:38
I would love to.
41:40
I'm, first of all, I'm much more active on Instagram than I used to be, and I'm under Agile Gardener, which is a handle I came up with years ago, but I love it because it's like agile is like a term for software, but it's also about being able to pivot.
41:55
And then I'm kind of a wannabe gardener.
41:57
I'm not very good at it, but, anyway, so Agile Gardener on Instagram.
42:01
And then the workshop I've been building is it keeps evolving.
42:06
It's a change management boot camp, basically.
42:08
And so it's teaching all these— it's what I wish I'd had, literally.
42:11
Like, if when I was in mortgage and rolling out change, if I'd had this boot camp, I would have done a way better job of interviewing the stakeholders and, identifying the impact to people.
42:24
And it's like, you can teach people to do this without having to pay the you know, trying to think of the big, like McKinsey or, you know, these big companies that get paid to come in and implement these things.
42:35
It's like, it's actually pretty simple.
42:38
It's not easy to do, but it's simple.
42:39
And this is my— I made a report card called the Bridges Report Card, which is not— which is kind of a nod to Bridges, who's work I really admire, but it's also— it's a different— it's an acronym for like how, ready is your organization for change.
42:58
And it's like some of the questions are like, is there backing?
43:01
So it's an acronym, and you can download that from my website and it'll put you in touch with me also.
43:09
And, I think I need to go make sure the link is working, but that's something I just recently Yay, there's me recently built with my friend Marilyn, who's also helping me co-create the class.
43:22
So Instagram, and then I'm on LinkedIn, and then briggsperformanceconsulting.com is my website.
43:27
Amazing.
43:28
And when does your next class start?
43:30
It's going to be a self-paced class with office hours.
43:33
So it should launch by November.
43:36
We've been— I was trying to get a cohort together to start everybody at the same time.
43:42
But we're realizing that people are going through change at different, you know, everybody's in different phases.
43:48
So it's going to be self-paced.
43:49
There'll be short videos, but then you can drop in and come to office hours and actually bring your stakeholder list or your— the idea is that people can bring a real change that they're working on and we'll be like, okay, go interview your stakeholders and then come back.
44:03
yeah.
44:03
It's going to be, yeah, I'm very excited about it.
44:05
that sounds amazing.
44:07
Yeah, and it's like, it's like DIY change management, and we'll give you all the tools.
44:14
I'm probably going to build something amazing with Claude.
44:16
I don't know what it does yet, but you'll be able to, you know, plug in your change and then get like a communications plan.
44:23
And, absolutely.
44:24
yeah, that sounds really exciting.
44:27
So, for that, for the, the, the person who I guess would find the most value out of the self-paced course, is that like, are you, are you thinking like, small business owners or medium-sized business owners or somebody else entirely?
44:42
Yeah, I'm thinking definitely the medium-sized business, middle managers, training managers, IT managers.
44:48
Ideally, if I were a CEO and I was rolling out a change, I would send my, ops person, my tech person, and my training person.
44:58
Like all 3.
44:59
yeah.
45:00
And then have them talk to each other.
45:02
I know it's crazy.
45:04
but you know, if you can get more than one person in the company to go through it, then you've got these different people that are speaking the same language.
45:12
And, and, I really believe that it can save companies money to implement change this way.
45:18
And, and it's not even about doing it A to Z a certain way.
45:22
It's just about taking the right things into account.
45:25
Depending on where you're at in the process and understanding the human side.
45:29
absolutely.
45:30
Let's see if I can get this to work real quick.
45:32
I think this is the link to your— I spelled assessment wrong.
45:36
That's okay.
45:37
I spelled my name wrong yesterday when I was filling something out without my glasses.
45:43
Yeah, we'll see if it works.
45:45
Let's see.
45:46
Change readiness report card.
45:48
That's it.
45:49
All right, that should take you to a link where you can download it, and, it'll put you into my CRM, which is very modest, and I'm not good at sending out frequent emails.
46:01
You don't have to worry about getting spammed.
46:05
Amazing.
46:06
That's good.
46:06
More people should be less, good at, at that.
46:10
Yeah.
46:12
Excellent.
46:13
It's been awesome.
46:15
Yeah, Estie, I really appreciate you coming on.
46:17
Like, this— I love this conversation.
46:19
I think, I think people need to acknowledge just how important change is, especially in today's, in today's time.
46:28
and so, I hope more people like just jump on that, that bandwagon and acknowledge how valuable, you know, getting coaching, doing some, some learning on best practices truly is.
46:42
The people side.
46:43
Yeah.
46:44
Yay.
46:45
well, thanks again, Estie.
46:46
This was, this was fun.
46:47
Thanks, Grant.
46:47
Yeah, it's always fun chatting it up with you.
46:49
Thanks.
46:50
Good questions.
46:51
Thank you, Claude.
46:52
Yeah, right.
46:54
All right, enjoy the rest of your day.
46:56
You too.
46:56
Thanks, Grant.
46:57
Bye.
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